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1. A question about patterns of systems evolution
Обсуждения-аналоги
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Авторы
- Genady Filkovsky » Всем
- Сергей В. Сычёв » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей В. Сычёв
- Сергей В. Сычёв » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей В. Сычёв
- Сергей В. Сычёв » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей В. Сычёв
- Сергей В. Сычёв » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей В. Сычёв
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Редакция » Всем
- Кирилл Лебедев » Редакция
- Genady Filkovsky » Всем
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей Сидорочев
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей Сидорочев
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Соколов Александр » Всем
- Сергей Сидорочев » Соколов Александр
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей Сидорочев
- Сергей Сидорочев » Genady Filkovsky
- Genady Filkovsky » Сергей Сидорочев
What's a criteria for giving a set of examples status of a "pattern", or a "law", of technical systems evolution? It's relatively easy to collect such sets with common attribute: are they "patterns" , "laws"? Here are some candidates:
A. A Law of Decreasing a Distance Between System and Human Body.
Examples:
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one's knees), to palm (touching one's hands, which are much more important part of human body).
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
B. A Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system.
Examples:
1. An air-tied zipper developed in NASA for space walk, used in dry suits for scuba diving.
2. Punch cards developed for mechanical sorting machines, used for input information into computers.
3. Iconic symbols on cave walls developed to visualize goals (like killing a big animal), used on wood panels to visualize hidden powers (like religious images), used on computer displays to visualize purpose of available program functions.
C. A Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts.
Examples:
1. I'll skip the well-known example #1 - too obvious :-).
2. Development of electronics from using gas tubes to hard silicone crystals.
3. Development of transportation vehicles from horses (about 80% water) to metal cars, especially hard and heavy tractors. Also, from wood-ropes-and-fabric ships to metal ships; etc.
With a little imagination, one can come up with more examples for these "laws", as well as with other "laws". What is a critical test for real laws of technical systems evolution?
Dear Gennady!
Dear Sergey,
You don‘t need to apologise about your English: it‘s not that bad at all.
To your question, I didn’t mean that neccessarily, but "mistakes" could be partial criteria, i.e. a neccessary although insufficient condition. In other words, having a "mistake" could eliminate something from being a law, although not having this "mistake" would not automatically confirm the law status. Fine with me. Do you have these "mistakes"?
Мне неизвестен "закон перехода подсистемы от одной системы к другой" (Ваш п.В). Мне известен "Закон перехода в надсистему" (но в п.В. речь идет явно не о нем). Примеры же приведенные в п.В. - это просто "разные случаи". Возможно они и могли бы иллюстрировать какую-то закономерность, но по трем примерам судить об этом нельзя.
Аналогично, мне неизвестен "Закон сокращения расстояния между системой и человеком" (Ваш п.А). Мне известен "Закон полноты частей системы и вытеснения человека" (но в п.А. речь идет не о нем). Существует ли закон, который сформулировали Вы, я не знаю. Три приведенных примера ничего не иллюстрируют.
Тоже касается "Закона перехода от мягких частей к жестким" (мне такой закон неизвестен, а по трем примерам судить нельзя).
2. На уровне "строк".
Разберу только примеры Вашей группы "А".
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one‘s knees), to palm (touching one‘s hands, which are much more important part of human body).
б) Описывает процесс развития компьютеров не только более достоверно, но и более "компактно".
Таким образом, я бы использовал критерий Эрнста Маха ("Экономия науки") . Это возможно не единственный критерий, но, бесспорно, один из весомых. Можно также провести аналогию с повышением идеальности.
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
Согласитесь, что и данная "цепочка" собрана некорректно. Она вовсе не иллюстрирует "сокращение расстояния": участники оркестра сидят рядом (равно и публика) и держат инструменты в руках. Если же имеется в виду "приближение оркестра (как источника звука) к публике", то мы имеем не только walкman‘ы, но и дискотеки, на которых расстояние до источников звука весьма и весьма немалое. Да и концерты на стадионах.
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
Согласитесь, что и данная "цепочка" собрана некорректно. В настоящее время беспилотные космические аппараты летают сами знаете куда - т.е., гораздо дальше орбиты Земли, на которой работают экипажи с людьми. И расстояние между такими аппаратами и пилотируемыми экипажами несоизмеримо больше расстояния между спутниками Земли и человечеством. И эти расстояния растут.
б) Является более экономичной (компактной) в сравнении с другими (но рано или поздно появится другая более удобная Теория);
в) .........................................
г) .........................................
К тому же, недаром великие говорят, что фактов всегда достаточно - не хватает фантазии.
С пожеланием красивых идей,
The "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" (your item "B") is unknown to me. "Law of transition to a higher-level system"is known (but the question obviously not of it in the item "В"). Examples listed in item "B" are simply "different cases". Probably they also could illustrate any law, but it is impossible to judge about it with the help of three examples only.
Similarly, the "Law of Decreasing a Distance Between System and Human Body" (your item "A") is unknown to me too."Law of system completeness" is known (but the question not of it in the item "А")". Whether there is a law which was formulated by you, I do not know. Three listed examples illustrate nothing.
The same concerns to the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" (your item "C"). As for me, I do not know anything about it. And it is impossible to judge about it by three examples.
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one‘s knees), to palm (touching one‘s hands, which are much more important part of human body).
I would formulate so (a little simplifying): "Computer decreases/rolls up (transition to a microlevel) and at the same time it passes to a higher-level system (networks and periphery increases/unrolls). Why I would formulate so, instead of differently? Not for dogmatic reason.
It is
b) It is describing the development of computers not only more authentically, but also more compactly.
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
Precisely so and with any "examples" which we add (or we do not add) into any "MODELS" ("THEORIES"...).
а) It is confirmed by the facts (though it is not proved to the full by reason of incompleteness = i.e., carries a statistical property).
In advance, I shall try to protect myself from reproach in nonobjectivity (i.e., that I propose to compose instead of to discover) by the reference to item а) "Confirmed by the facts" (even not all). And also by the means of the general understanding that when we talk about any theories, we do not search any absolute true, but we observe the development of various representations and models.
Dear Sergey,
I agree that criteria should be on the theory level. In this case the theory is, shortly, that technical systems evolve according to some laws, which exist outside and independently of mind. I have some questions regarding the theory, too, but now let‘s focus on these laws.
[I am not talking right now about my personal believes - I don‘t believe that my "laws" A, B, C are really laws.]
The question is: what makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not? Or, what makes the "Law of system completeness" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" not? Etc.
You probably have answered this in your response already, but you included many other details there, so I am not sure about the straight and clear answer. Could you formulate it directly, please?
I believe that it is a "correctness of chain". If so, would you please clarify it?
I try to stick to a topic in hand and not to extend the discussion into philosophy of science, which was a subject of my doctoral studies.
Thank you.
Уважаемый Геннадий!
Could you formulate it directly, please?
Пожалуйста: "Если же говорить о критериях не для уровня "пример", а для уровня "ТЕОРИЯ", то приведу два хорошо известных критерия:
б) Является более экономичной (компактной) в сравнении с другими (но рано или поздно появится другая более удобная Теория);
в) .........................................
г) .........................................
Could you formulate it directly, please?
"Here you are:
а) It is confirmed by the facts (though it is not proved to the full by reason of incompleteness = i.e., carries a statistical property).
Dear Sergey,
Thank you for the direct answer. Unfortunately, it answers a different question - I guess it happened because of the language barrier.
Let me repeat my "direct" question:
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not? Or, what makes the "Law of system completeness" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" not? Etc.
If your answer is, "correct vs. incorrect chain", would you please clarify it?
If your answer is the same "a), b), c), d)", I need to clarify: I don‘t consider my "laws" (A, B, C) INSTEAD of the other laws that you know, but IN ADDITION to them. These "laws" do have some confirming facts, and they don‘t need to be more compact than the other laws, since they do not try to refute these other laws.
Best regards,
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not?
"Закон перехода подсистемы от одной системы к другой"
"Закон перехода в надсистему"
1. Сформулирован на правильном системном уровне. Описывает поведение "класса явлений".
Всего доброго,
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not?
1. It is formulated for correct system level. It describes behaviour of a class of the phenomena.
Dear Sergey,
Thank you for the answer. It allows to focus father discussion. I think it‘s a good point to start a new one - with the more focused question. I will start it and we can continue there. Anyway, this thread grew too long and became difficult for a newcomer to participate.
By the way, what do you think is a reson that nobody else participated? No interest? Language?
Have a nice trip. Reply when you have time - I am not in a hurry.
Best regards,
Уважаемый Геннадий,
Поскольку мой английский еще хуже, пишу исключительно на русском (чего и Вам желаю, если Вы заинтересованы в более активном обсуждении темы).
Попробую проиллюстрировать позицию Сергея Сычёва примером. Для наглядности намеренно простым.
Допустим:
Мы столкнули со стола хрупкую вазу, она упала и разбилась.
Мы столкнули с подоконника хрупкий стакан, он упал и разбился.
Мы столкнули …. хрупкое… , оно… упало и разбилось.
Примеры, конечно, «высосаны» и даже утрированы, но вполне соответствуют "from wood-ropes-and-fabric ships to metal ships" (например). Уж, извините.
Так вот.
Из этих частных примеров мы вполне могли бы вывести «Закон перехода хрупких объектов из целого в осколки».
Но, конечно, не выведем, поскольку это именно частные примеры и я даже вариантов описывать не буду, поскольку всем хорошо понятны.
В то же время, мы понимаем «почему предметы падают», и «Закон всемирного тяготения», как раз, описывает поведение «класса явлений».
Однако, как мне кажется, Вам это и так хорошо известно и цель данного обсуждения на самом деле иная. Я не ошибся?
Спасибо.
Also, excuse for my bad Russian! ))
PS
- Данный топик вовсе не длинный – если Вы посмотрите внимательно, то найдете гораздо более длинные (в разы) обсуждения.
- Язык, безусловно, сдерживает более активное подключение Коллег, поэтому если у Вас на компьютере нет кириллицы, pishite translitom. Вас поймут.
Дорогие Коллеги!
Вероятно, транслитом писать, все же, не стоит. Можно пользоваться сервисом http://www.translit.ru .
Если же это будет сложно, весь транслит мы сами будем преобразовывать в нормальный язык.
С Уважением,
The problem is not in Russian font or keyboard. The problem is in a language. After so many years of not using Russian, I don\'t think in Russian anymore. I read and understand Russian without a problem, although I guess there are some very rarely used words, a meaning of which I have forgotten. However, it would take an effort on my side to write in Russian, and the result won\'t be very clear, since it will be an unprofessional translation. I think, most of you are just in opposite situation: you read and understand English, but are not fluent in expressing in this language.
This can be resolved by ... (I don\'t want to use a word "compromise", which is a TRIZ curse) ... overcoming the contradiction in a way, where each side does what it does best. In other words, I post in English, you post in Russian.
By the way - and this probably goes to the Editors - I think that translation of TRIZ terminology into various languages of the world is a wasted effort. To apply TRIZ, engineers in Cameron will have to use English, because all the technical literature is in English anyway. So, why to translate TRIZ into Cameron’s?! My last employer was a Japanese company, I live on Dutch island, I guide divers coming from many different countries - in a very rare exception we could not communicate in English.
P.S. I still think I’ll start a new thread for the “law” question, unless somebody points to a reason not to do so.
Best regards,
I think we all agree about a difference between "just a pattern" and "a law". I would simply say that a pattern is a generalization based on a set with a common attribute, while a law supposedly reflects some internal mechanism of how things happen. The point I mean to focus on is not this difference: in my very first message-question I wrote that it is relatively easy with little imagination to collect a set of examples looking like a pattern. How do we know, or how do we decide, that a specific pattern is not a law? Or, why do we decide that a specific pattern is a law?
In other words: what makes us to believe that a pattern of transition to a higher-level system is really a LAW of transition to a higher-level system? How do we know that the pattern of transition a system from one higher-level system to another is just a pattern?
Let's put it in one more way: I strongly believe that the transition of a system from one higher-level system to another is NOT a law, but I have doubts that the transition to a higher-level system IS one. Or, let's say I have doubts about macro-micro transition to be a law - let's say it looks to me as just some pattern. What should I look for to say, "Ah, yes, these are laws! And those others, like soft to hard transition, are just some patterns."?
I hope my question is more focused and clear now and does not lead to any - quite trivial - philosophical issues.
Best regards,
P.S. Did you mean, St.Marten?
The answers above say in different words that the law is right and good, while the other thing is wrong and bad. "Correct system level", "stages of system evolution", etc. are not defined any better than "law of system evolution". Let's pick a specific law - I'd suggest either transition to higher level or macro-micro - and see what is so right and real about it that is missing in the un-laws. Let's consider the TRIZ laws, not some abstract philosophical topic.
Otherwise, the question "How do we know that macro-micro is a law?" just becomes a question "How do we know that macro-micro belongs to a correct system level?" etc. This really leads nowhere. If we cannot go into the actual contents of the discussed matter, this discussion is not even a philosophy - it's a religious statement: "We believe that transition to a higher level is a law, that it is stated on a correct system level, that it describes stages of systems evolution, that ..." :-)
You see, I try to make the discussion practical.
Best regards,
- всеобщие, или универсальные законы;
- законы общие для больших групп явлений (например, закон сохранения и превращения энергии);
- специфические, или частные законы (например, закон сложения скоростей в механике)».
- Законы развития технических систем должны отражать действительное развитие техники и, следовательно, выявляться и подтверждаться на базе достаточно большого объема патентной и технической информации, глубокого исследования истории развития различных технических систем.
- Закон развития… должен быть выявлен и подтвержден на базе фонда изобретений достаточно высокого уровня (не ниже третьего), так как изобретения низших уровней практически не меняют (или мало меняют) исходную систему и фактически не развивают ее.
- Законы развития технических систем не должны противоречить законам первой группы, которые являются для них надсистемой….
- Законы развития технических систем, составляющие теоретическое обоснование ТРИЗ, должны быть инструментальны, то есть помогать находить новые конкретные инструменты решения задач, прогнозирования развития и т.п. и обеспечивать получение на их основе конкретных выводов и рекомендаций.
- Каждый выявленный закон должен допускать возможность его проверки на практике по материалам патентного фонда и при решении практических задач…
- Выявленные законы и закономерности должны иметь «открытый» вид, то есть допускать дальнейшее совершенствование по мере развития техники и накопления новых патентных материалов.
Если же окажется, что «Закон» НЕ соответствует требованиям, а pattern как раз наоборот, то, я, наконец, выучу английский язык и I shall guide divers coming from many different countries. Но пока в планах этого нет.
Уважаемый Александр,
Вы либо не до конца поняли, либо не очень внимательно смотрели:
Здесь как раз и предлагается сравнить теорию-1 и теорию-2.
И именно в пределах одного предмета.
Я надеюсь, мы получим очевидные ответы.
Удачи,
Thank you very much. This clarification is a good way to focus the question. Let's try to make a next step.
I think that both TRIZ laws and the test patterns obey requirements 3 and 6: they do not contradict any general law, and they are open for farther development. This part is easy.
This part is more subjective, but it seems to me that at least some of the examples for the test patterns are inventions of a high level, which changed their technical systems essentially. These patterns certainly can be confirmed historically, i.e. these transitions really had happened. (I've found, incidentally, the "transfer pattern" emphasized here: http://journal.fibreculture.org/issue3/issue3_barnet.html). They can be used for solving new problems: for example, ARIZ has, or used to have, a question, "How do similar problems get solved in other technical branches?" So, I don't see a problem with requirements 2, 4, and 5.
In my opinion, the requirement 1 is the problematic one. What is a "real" technical evolution - as opposed to a "fake" one? Which volume is "large enough"? How a "depth" of research is measured? In other words, what makes the TRIZ law to pass this requirement, while the test pattern fails it?
Depending on an interpretation of the emotional terms of requirement 1, both parts of our little comparison can pass through or fall out. This leads to results 2 or 3. However, none of the results should stop you from guiding divers.
Best regards,
Уважаемый Геннадий,
Я сейчас в отъезде, отвечу Вам по возвращению.
С уважением,
Уважаемый Сергей!
Когда Вы планируете вернуться?
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