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What's a criteria for giving a set of examples status of a "pattern", or a "law", of technical systems evolution? It's relatively easy to collect such sets with common attribute: are they "patterns" , "laws"? Here are some candidates:
A. A Law of Decreasing a Distance Between System and Human Body.
Examples:
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one's knees), to palm (touching one's hands, which are much more important part of human body).
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
B. A Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system.
Examples:
1. An air-tied zipper developed in NASA for space walk, used in dry suits for scuba diving.
2. Punch cards developed for mechanical sorting machines, used for input information into computers.
3. Iconic symbols on cave walls developed to visualize goals (like killing a big animal), used on wood panels to visualize hidden powers (like religious images), used on computer displays to visualize purpose of available program functions.
C. A Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts.
Examples:
1. I'll skip the well-known example #1 - too obvious :-).
2. Development of electronics from using gas tubes to hard silicone crystals.
3. Development of transportation vehicles from horses (about 80% water) to metal cars, especially hard and heavy tractors. Also, from wood-ropes-and-fabric ships to metal ships; etc.
With a little imagination, one can come up with more examples for these "laws", as well as with other "laws". What is a critical test for real laws of technical systems evolution?
Dear Sergey,
You don‘t need to apologise about your English: it‘s not that bad at all.
To your question, I didn’t mean that neccessarily, but "mistakes" could be partial criteria, i.e. a neccessary although insufficient condition. In other words, having a "mistake" could eliminate something from being a law, although not having this "mistake" would not automatically confirm the law status. Fine with me. Do you have these "mistakes"?
Мне неизвестен "закон перехода подсистемы от одной системы к другой" (Ваш п.В). Мне известен "Закон перехода в надсистему" (но в п.В. речь идет явно не о нем). Примеры же приведенные в п.В. - это просто "разные случаи". Возможно они и могли бы иллюстрировать какую-то закономерность, но по трем примерам судить об этом нельзя.
Аналогично, мне неизвестен "Закон сокращения расстояния между системой и человеком" (Ваш п.А). Мне известен "Закон полноты частей системы и вытеснения человека" (но в п.А. речь идет не о нем). Существует ли закон, который сформулировали Вы, я не знаю. Три приведенных примера ничего не иллюстрируют.
Тоже касается "Закона перехода от мягких частей к жестким" (мне такой закон неизвестен, а по трем примерам судить нельзя).
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one‘s knees), to palm (touching one‘s hands, which are much more important part of human body).
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
The "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" (your item "B") is unknown to me. "Law of transition to a higher-level system"is known (but the question obviously not of it in the item "В"). Examples listed in item "B" are simply "different cases". Probably they also could illustrate any law, but it is impossible to judge about it with the help of three examples only.
Similarly, the "Law of Decreasing a Distance Between System and Human Body" (your item "A") is unknown to me too."Law of system completeness" is known (but the question not of it in the item "А")". Whether there is a law which was formulated by you, I do not know. Three listed examples illustrate nothing.
The same concerns to the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" (your item "C"). As for me, I do not know anything about it. And it is impossible to judge about it by three examples.
1. Development of computers from computer-room type (walking distance), to desktop (arm-length), to laptop (touching one‘s knees), to palm (touching one‘s hands, which are much more important part of human body).
2. Development of music playing systems from orchestra (walking distance), to turntable (arm-length), to walkman (touching ones body).
3. Development of spaceships from "sputnik" (very far from a human body), to dog carrying (Laika; mammalian body but not a human yet), to carrying one human body (Gagarin), to carrying two human bodies (Leonov and Beliaev), to carrying multiple human bodies.
Dear Sergey,
I agree that criteria should be on the theory level. In this case the theory is, shortly, that technical systems evolve according to some laws, which exist outside and independently of mind. I have some questions regarding the theory, too, but now let‘s focus on these laws.
[I am not talking right now about my personal believes - I don‘t believe that my "laws" A, B, C are really laws.]
The question is: what makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not? Or, what makes the "Law of system completeness" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" not? Etc.
You probably have answered this in your response already, but you included many other details there, so I am not sure about the straight and clear answer. Could you formulate it directly, please?
I believe that it is a "correctness of chain". If so, would you please clarify it?
I try to stick to a topic in hand and not to extend the discussion into philosophy of science, which was a subject of my doctoral studies.
Thank you.
Уважаемый Геннадий!
Could you formulate it directly, please?
Пожалуйста: "Если же говорить о критериях не для уровня "пример", а для уровня "ТЕОРИЯ", то приведу два хорошо известных критерия:
Could you formulate it directly, please?
"Here you are:
Dear Sergey,
Thank you for the direct answer. Unfortunately, it answers a different question - I guess it happened because of the language barrier.
Let me repeat my "direct" question:
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not? Or, what makes the "Law of system completeness" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Soft Parts into Hard Parts" not? Etc.
If your answer is, "correct vs. incorrect chain", would you please clarify it?
If your answer is the same "a), b), c), d)", I need to clarify: I don‘t consider my "laws" (A, B, C) INSTEAD of the other laws that you know, but IN ADDITION to them. These "laws" do have some confirming facts, and they don‘t need to be more compact than the other laws, since they do not try to refute these other laws.
Best regards,
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not?
"Закон перехода подсистемы от одной системы к другой"
What makes the "Law of transition to a higher-level system" a law, while the "Law of Transition of Subsystem from One System to Another system" not?
Dear Sergey,
Thank you for the answer. It allows to focus father discussion. I think it‘s a good point to start a new one - with the more focused question. I will start it and we can continue there. Anyway, this thread grew too long and became difficult for a newcomer to participate.
By the way, what do you think is a reson that nobody else participated? No interest? Language?
Have a nice trip. Reply when you have time - I am not in a hurry.
Best regards,
Уважаемый Геннадий,
Поскольку мой английский еще хуже, пишу исключительно на русском (чего и Вам желаю, если Вы заинтересованы в более активном обсуждении темы).
Попробую проиллюстрировать позицию Сергея Сычёва примером. Для наглядности намеренно простым.
Допустим:
Мы столкнули со стола хрупкую вазу, она упала и разбилась.
Мы столкнули с подоконника хрупкий стакан, он упал и разбился.
Мы столкнули …. хрупкое… , оно… упало и разбилось.
Примеры, конечно, «высосаны» и даже утрированы, но вполне соответствуют "from wood-ropes-and-fabric ships to metal ships" (например). Уж, извините.
Так вот.
Из этих частных примеров мы вполне могли бы вывести «Закон перехода хрупких объектов из целого в осколки».
Но, конечно, не выведем, поскольку это именно частные примеры и я даже вариантов описывать не буду, поскольку всем хорошо понятны.
В то же время, мы понимаем «почему предметы падают», и «Закон всемирного тяготения», как раз, описывает поведение «класса явлений».
Однако, как мне кажется, Вам это и так хорошо известно и цель данного обсуждения на самом деле иная. Я не ошибся?
Спасибо.
Also, excuse for my bad Russian! ))
PS
Дорогие Коллеги!
Вероятно, транслитом писать, все же, не стоит. Можно пользоваться сервисом http://www.translit.ru .
Если же это будет сложно, весь транслит мы сами будем преобразовывать в нормальный язык.
С Уважением,
Если же окажется, что «Закон» НЕ соответствует требованиям, а pattern как раз наоборот, то, я, наконец, выучу английский язык и I shall guide divers coming from many different countries. Но пока в планах этого нет.
Уважаемый Александр,
Вы либо не до конца поняли, либо не очень внимательно смотрели:
Здесь как раз и предлагается сравнить теорию-1 и теорию-2.
И именно в пределах одного предмета.
Я надеюсь, мы получим очевидные ответы.
Удачи,
Уважаемый Геннадий,
Я сейчас в отъезде, отвечу Вам по возвращению.
С уважением,
Уважаемый Сергей!
Когда Вы планируете вернуться?